Who is the reformer in the final quest

But we already know that! Because if I am wrong, I need to correct this. I don't know about Greek and Hebrew references works. The best thing is to use a concordance and check out the usage of the word yourself.

If I remember correct Zodiates has some good notes on the difference between the soul and the spirit which might touch on this. My views briefly are these The heart is like an interface that can be used either for our renewed spirit or our old man.

It is the seat of our desires and is likened to a well. If we are walking in the spirit then God will guide our hearts and give us his desires. He promises to fulfil the desires of our hearts if we give ourselves to him. Such things as sincerity, faith, hope, compassion, gratitude and love come out of the heart, and so our hearts need to be kept soft in order for us to stay close to God. The bible says we purify our hearts through faith. The heart is at the core of who we are, and it is from here that faith must come, in order for it to change us.

Sincerity and such like cannot come from the understanding, though the understanding is not unimportant. Our spirit is recreated when we are born again. We become new creations. Our minds, like the heart, can also be used for good or evil. That is why we need to be renewed constantly by the word, in the spirit of our mind.

Our soul is our natural life, our mind, will, emotions. In short everything which can sum up 'consciousness'. That is why in some places it is spoken of as surviving death and in others it is spoken of as dying.

There are basically three words for 'life' in the NT: bios - natural life, psuche - soul life, and zoe - new or divine life. This is vitally important information to live in the spirit, but people who don't understand it and who have a bi-partite view of man, reject it as gnosticism. Yes and maybe he has misinterpreted what he heard, or his memory was poor here. The statement about believing in your heart and not your head is biblical. The head has no power to change and purify the nature, whereas believing with your heart does.

One of the issues here is childlike simplicity. The heart has to be central when we are talking about faith. The heart represents the condition of the person. Scholars like anyone are influenced by their theology. You can't even get to english speaking people to agree with definitions let alone another language. Yes totally, the attitude we are to have when we enter in. Did he likewise not know whether it was Luther or Calvin? I wouldn't either. I can't explain why.

It just would not seem right. There is more I can say on these things. But there really doesn't seem anything substantial to totally reject the message. Hi Eric, well though we may not come to an agreement on this I do appreciate your attitude in this and willingness to fine-tune your review. I realize my email did not maintain the different fonts I placed in the texts or the emboldened letters, leading to some confusion.

A friend of mine has the softcover edition of TFQ. So I have had a look at the intro. Joyner says "The next level of revelation is a conscious sense of the presence of the Lord, or the anointing of the Holy Spirit, which gives special illumination to our minds.

This often comes when I am writing, or speaking, and it gives me much greater confidence in the importance or accuracy of what I am saying. I believe that this was probably experienced by the apostles as the wrote the New Testament epistles. This will give us great confidence, but it is still a level where we can still be influenced by our prejudices, doctrines, etc.

This seems to me where some of the controversy is. I agree with what he says. As I can see all he is saying is that the apostles where consciously aware of God with them, illuminating them, when they wrote.

He is not denying that they were writing infallibly, and in fact reaffirms later that scripture alone is infallible. He is not implying to my mind that the apostles were influenced by their prejudices. Simply that on this level we can be so influenced.

But we are not writing infallible scripture. But it is obvious that the apostles must have had such a consciousness of the presence of the Lord opening up their understanding and mind as they wrote the epistles. For example among the early methodists dreams and visions were by no means uncommon. Also among the French Huguenots there were companies of child prophets who had visions. Also the negro spirituals. So also at Azusa Street.

There are a lot of examples. I could provide many more if you wish. P16 I hope you get another chance to look through those scripture I gave. I agree we are not taught by angels, that was just a part of the vision. The angel represented love which does teach us. Daniel was taught the 70 weeks by an angel in a vision. John was taught about the great whore by an angel in a vision. You mentioned a lot of things about the apostle Paul and maybe at a later date I will address some of those things.

Hi i am having probs with aol. I live near London, England. Where abouts in the USA do you live? TFQ has been very well received here and many speak of the way it woke them up to cast away the works of the flesh and live a life which is hot toward God and not lukewarm.

Many spoke of it's convicting power. I have been to the USA many times and will God willing be moving there soon. It is in a most lamentable condition. TFQ carries a prophetic message of repentance far beyond almost anything I have seen before. It is a clear call to living far above the condition we have allowed ourselves to live in. It is believed that the powers of the age to come refer to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore only those who have died to self can be trusted with the demonstrations of the Spirit which Christ will manifest in the church. That is why it is written: "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Before the end God has to fulfill the words of Christ that we will do greater works than the ones he did.

Only those who have been through God's training and have learned to die to everything of the flesh can maintain the life of God in the soul to the degree needed to be a part of what God wants to accomplish. That is why TFQ is such a wake up call to a deeper life in God. That is why it can expose our own weaknesses and the susceptibility of our own hearts to deceive us and keep us living a standard of life that falls far short of what God requires.

That is why it's message is so vitally important and why Satan hates it. One of the reasons the church is a lot more powerful in third world countries is because they have already died. They know the dangers of this way and have already decided to live on the edge for Christ. Unless we break out of our complacency and deadness we will be rejected as unfit for the masters use, which is why God in his mercy is sending prophetic warnings.

Instead of rejecting it we need to use the little time we have to prepare ourselves. That is why I do not normally respond to critiques because there is so little time and we need to be getting ready and staying clear of everything which is a hindrance. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. A J Gordon: "God cannot put his signature upon what is not His.

Hence, if under the sway of a worldly spirit we withhold ourselves from God and insist on self- ownership, we need not count it strange if God withholds Himself from us and denies the seal of divine ownership. Yes there are beings in hell hades. We have to make a difference between hell and the lake of fire in which hell is thrown into.

Yes we are a body. As such we are dependent upon each other. All of us need the each other and the other gifts that others have. It is needed for us to come into maturity. See Ephesians 4 and 1 Cor. We can never say of the prophetic 'I have no need for you'.

It is interdependence, not dependence. I know that in my own life the sharpness and accuracy of the prophetic word has kept me and given me strength to continue, and has restored vision and clarity where confusion has come in. I suppose there might be passages in Proverbs or elsewhere that might suggest that such treasures are in our "heart" and that we collect more treasures as we reach higher levels but I tend to think that all the hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ Colossians , and that they will stay in Christ, rather than us being or becoming "the treasure house of God.

I have already spoken on this a little. It is interesting that the Revelation, as well as the prophetic books of the old testament, is full of precious stones, metals, and images like rainbows and a crystal sea. In fact crystals have a big place in scripture from the breastplate of the high priest to the emerald rainbow. In fact the human body is crystalline, and gives off piezoelectric charges like a gemstone.

Further emerald is the colour of balance and harmony because it is the middle colour of the rainbow. Wisdom and knowledge is likened to treasure "Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. The more we learn to abide in Christ the more of these treasures we will receive, because they are all in hidden in Him:. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him,and he with me.

It is obvious that the closer we get to God the more understanding we gain in the things of the Spirit. Knowledge here is said to come through the Spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Not human learning. It is something that only the spiritual can gain insight into. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. Unfortunately, the word peace simply gets nowhere near the richness of the Hebrew word shalom.

It is a word which comes from a verb meaning to make complete, to bring into completeness, to bring into wholeness and it refers to the totality of well being when a thing is whole as it was intended to be. Yes , health is a part of wholeness, health is part of shalomWholeness, health of body, health of mind, health of heart and a whole relationship between human beings and Godshalom exists between persons where they have that relationship of love and unity which moves them both towards wholeness: shalom be between you and me.

Hmmm well maybe you could explain that abit more. Are you referring to the fact that it is not dispensational? The scripture makes clear that the afterlife will be an experience which we cannot now fully comprehend. Do you really think anything in scripture will give you a true view of the awfulness of the divine judgements and rewards?

The next life will be so beyond anything we can now imagine from our limited perspective. Paul said that he saw things in the third heaven which are not lawful to utter, meaning that he saw things which the scriptures do not mention. Therefore your criticism of Joyner here is applicable to Paul. It could be said that for him 'Thus, the "visions" of those like Paul who have had "boastworthy" experiences, to see these things while they are still living are considered to be a surer guide to post-life realities.

All he is saying here is that with each encounter with an aspect of God a veil is removed. Therefore point 2 above applies. Maybe read that page again. He is saying what you are saying in all 3 points above. Regarding point 3, he is saying that it is as we see the Lord that we are transformed. The middle rendering is based on the fact that we are the ones who have to behold the Lord by developing a relationship with him.

I never understood it in any other sense as I read the book. My first reaction when I read the book was 'wow Joyner goes through all the same struggles I do' and I found that encouraging. I think you are mixing the figurative with the literal. Jesus' enemies are placed under his feet ie destroyed when he returns and destroys death. Also I don't believe that Jesus is literally standing but that it is a vision to represent the phase we are in, based on the fact that he will have to rise in order to return!

Paul states in I Corinthians that our prophecies and knowledge are partial and not complete-hence we do not and cannot prophesy or give words of knowledge with the full understanding that the Lord has-but he never refers to human utterances by the Holy Spirit as "deception. All I can say is that all of the churches of revelation were in deception except one or two and yet none of them realised it. We all fall so far short and need the grace of God to keep us out the deception of self, and to keep us seeing with His eyes.

Psalm Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. So I swear in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jer As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future. Jan 13, 1. I've just finished reading his book and found it very interesting. Is anyone familiar with his visions? Jan 13, We teamed up with Faith Counseling.

Can they help you today? Jan 14, 2. I think it was a very good book. I beleive it's a follow up to "The Harvest" but it was a while ago that I read it. Jan 14, Jan 15, 3. I have read The Call and the Final Quest. The way Joyner describes it, though, seems like a very wordly meritocracy. While the lowly people are content to be lowly and relatively far from the throne, it's hard for me to envision unity in heaven if it is so rigorously hierarchical. It doesn't seem in character with who God is or how heaven is described in the Bible.

It strikes me as an entirely human conception. On top of that, there are many thrones in heaven alongside or along with Jesus' throne, and the saints that sit on these thrones are given charge over galaxies and cities. That's just weird. What do the galaxy rulers do all day? Planet, spin. Now, spin faster. Comets, collide. The city rulers thing gives credence to the idea of patron saints, which I don't think is biblical.

Another problem I have with the theology is that The Final Quest propagates the idea of a great endtime revival and restoration. Joyner writes that the church in the last days will do great signs and wonders which will amaze all the people and confound the demonic horde. The church will be elevated and take its rightful place in the world. But everything in the Bible points to the endtimes being not so much fun.

I don't get it. More crucially, Joyner's conversation in the book with dead apostle Paul is very worrying. Paul tells Joyner that the church has misconstrued his epistles because it takes them as foundational texts. They are not foundational.

Only Jesus' words are foundational. Paul's writings are to be viewed in light of what Jesus said, not the other way around. I don't really know what Joyner's trying to get at here, but I wonder if he mightn't be a bit confused. Jesus did not physically write any of the books of the Bible. In the gospels, His words are related by others.

Just as in the epistles, the words of God are related by the New Testament writers. There's no difference. All scripture is God-breathed. Theoretically, Jesus had as much to do with writing Ephesians as He did Matthew, so I don't know where Joyner is coming from on this.

Aside from that, while the Bible is clear that Jesus is the cornerstone, it is equally clear that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. So Paul's epistles are foundational, as are Isaiah's prophecies and the Pentateuch. I could just chalk this up to a mistake on Joyner's part--I mean, we all err theologically on some point, right? These are the words Joyner reportedly received directly from dead apostle Paul.

That is troubling. And creepy. The Final Quest is really a mixed bag for me. I think a Christian could glean a lot from it Joyner even encourages readers to separate the wheat from the chaff but its being touted as a prophetic revelation direct from God makes it quite the quagmire for the undiscerning.

Proceed with caution. View all 4 comments. One of the only books I can think of that has impacted my life and thinking as much as the Bible. Inspirational messages that I will remember the rest of my life, and which I reread often. Mar 27, Donald Parker rated it it was amazing. What can you say about a book that supposedly contains a vision from God?

How do you write a critique of revelation? It might be like trying writing a review of the book of Revelations. If the words are Holy Spirit inspired, does one have the audacity or the foolishness to cast dispersions upon it? I would highly recommend to anyone commenting on a book such as this that they think really hard about what they say. Joyner claims he received the contents of this book in a series of visions that took place over about a year in duration.

Thus the big question becomes, is it legit? Where do I start? How about with the reviews of the book on Amazon? They warn that the book is dangerous. Ironically, one of the more salient aspects of the first part of the dreamlike adventure that the author goes through is doing battle against the enemy and discovering that many of the troops of the opposing army are deceived Christians.

Do you see the dilemma here? Is Mr. The answer to that question is very critical. They believe that God is love, and all we need to do is just love, so they burn their draft notices. This is a different type of delusion, but is deception just the same. The light is also growing more brilliant in response as the drumbeat is summoning the Christians soldiers onward. The two sides have clashed throughout the history of man.

The final quest is at hand, according to this book. Back to the quest - in between battles, the author is taken to Heaven and speaks with a few people there.

Some were famous evangelists and authors who reside in the lower part of Heaven instead of the penthouse because they labored for their own glory while on the Earth. In some cases, God ended their lives early to prevent them from going all the way over to the dark side due to their pride. And in the places of highest honor, people that labored in anonymity for God with faithfulness and perseverance are found. One of these is a man who was homeless, what some would consider a bum.

Ironically, my next book deals with the homeless, and the story of this man was a distinct revelation for me and an aid in deciding what to include in my book. I had to consider this a divine appointment for me to read this story at this time. Another concept that is super stressed is the importance of true humility. The author dons a cloak of humility which is a badge of honor among those in Heaven.

A warning against false humility is issued, labeling it as another variety of self-centeredness. Pride is portrayed as the banner of a hidden army that the enemy uses to attack unsuspecting troops loyal to Jesus.

I have been on this humility bandwagon for a while now. I think God has been speaking to me about it. This book points to centering your focus on Jesus, just like Peter did when he successfully walked on water for a few steps. We need to please Him and not the people around us, even those whom we love. And love leads to faith. Self promotion, self-aggrandizement, and even self-esteem itself pale into insignificance at the comparison with the glory of God.

Satan wants us to think about numero uno all the time. This book has given me a vision of what that is like. I highly recommend that you read it and with an open mind. As to the detractors, what can you say about a review which portrays the author, who has just confessed being guilty to many things and extolls the virtue of humility and the danger of false humility, as being arrogant and falsely humble?

My mom used to tell me, consider the source. The enemy is at work sowing lots of false teaching and doctrines and practices in our world today. It is confusing when Christians fight. However, Jesus said you will know them by their love.

I truly believe that we are in the last days many have thought that in the past and obviously they were wrong , and that means there will be a battle between God good and the devil evil. Which side are you going to fight on? You might wonder how you can love and fight at the same time since those two activities seem to be contradictory.

All I can say is — read the book, and you too will share the vision of that paradoxical position. View all 5 comments.

Jun 12, Crystal rated it did not like it Recommends it for: any christian looking for a call to increased passion and service. Shelves: christian. One of the few times I've completely removed a previous review. The first obvious one is the idea that a believer can communicate with the dead. On his journey, he encountered several who had died including colleagues, a famous Reformer and his wife my personal guess is that it was John Calvin and his wife and even the Apostle Paul himself.

However, in his last epistle he also wrote that he has finished what he was called to do and kept the faith, running the race with diligence 2 Tim. Throughout his journey, Joyner also gives angels the names of different biblical truths, basically personifying these biblical concepts. Christ is the perfect embodiment of faith, hope, love, wisdom, and everything else that is godly. Angels cannot embody these aspects as they are susceptible to temptation and being cast out of heaven, and they will be judged by believers 1 Cor.

In regard to angels, Joyner also paints the picture that the angels will be serving humans, but this is not the biblical picture as angels have one primary function: to serve God and to be messengers of God to people. As stated earlier, Joyner meets several people in the judgment hall on his way to see the throne of Christ. These people are the ones telling him that they deserve to be the least in heaven because they squandered their time on earth. This would imply the idea that there is shame in heaven dependent upon the works of the believer.

This idea runs contrary to being saved through grace and that no works could ever save anyone Eph. Jesus set the foundation for this idea including telling the parable of the workers in the vineyard Matt. The purpose of the parable is t o explain that no matter who calls on Jesus at whatever hour of their lives they are given grace freely and equally through trust in Christ, from the young teenager to the elder on their deathbed. Plus it does not line up with the picture of the New Jerusalem which will not have anyone or anything shameful within its gates Rev.

In heaven, there is no such ranking or levels of believers because we are all saved in the same way: faith in Jesus. There are many theological and scriptural topics that Joyner addresses throughout his vision. Several of these would certainly be in harmony with what the Bible teaches, including topics such as the sufficiency of Scripture, suffering, and worship. However, there are some that would also be a false representation as to what the biblical authors are meaning, such as eschatology and apostolic characters.

Both are unquestioningly entertaining reads as well as conveying powerful allegorical messages to their readers that must be stressed in the church today. On the other hand, neither should be taken so literally that one would equate them with having further revelation into the truths of Scripture or as basis for Christian doctrine.

Joyner treats his work as the former and, unfortunately some have tended to regard his work as also the later. The Final Quest. Hardcover ed. Charlotte : Morning Star Publications, , You are commenting using your WordPress. You are commenting using your Google account. You are commenting using your Twitter account. You are commenting using your Facebook account. Notify me of new comments via email.

Notify me of new posts via email. Red-Headed Monk Here is a simple blog about Christian theology and how it pertains to life, combining timeless truth with immediate culture.

Truth: Can You Handle It? The author of Hebrews encourages his readers to encourage one another and not to avoid meeting with one another for the sake of building each other up , 25 THEME 8 Although there were several themes in his book I could affirm, a problem I had with his text is his treatment of wisdom in comparison to Christ.

Charlotte : Morning Star Publications, , 50 [3] Ibid. Share this: Twitter Facebook.